<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1519</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	12/17/99 2:04:27 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest     Friday, December 17 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1519<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1517<BR>
Re: Ethnic Confusions<BR>
Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
OT: Hot Rods and Gun Bunnies<BR>
SDB Traditions<BR>
Re: SF Trav game<BR>
RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #1517<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
[OT] Firearms Discussions <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:01:14 -0600<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
<BR>
I've written a space combat game the history of which has combined USA and<BR>
Canada into the Union of North America.  How would Canadians feal about<BR>
that?  Americans?  Would it help that in 2080 the president-elect from<BR>
Toronto gives a "before the decade is out" speech<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>By replacing "Canada" with "Imperium" and "USA" with "Solomani<BR>
>Confederation", this post becomes a most valuable on-topic piece ofTrav<BR>
>material!  Qewl.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:16:36 -0500<BR>
From: "David L. Pulver" <dlpulver@kos.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1517<BR>
<BR>
At 01:26 PM 12/17/99 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:10:58 -0500<BR>
>From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com><BR>
>Subject: [OT] Firearms Discussions (long)<BR>
>   2) It can be accurately pointed out that governments and peoples have<BR>
>from time to time in the course of history deemed it appropriate to<BR>
>concentrate the ability to use force in the form of projectile weapons in<BR>
>the hands of the state.  When this has happened, the resulting changes in<BR>
>society have been mixed at best.  Hitler made sure that guns were rounded<BR>
>up when he took power in the 1930s.  On the other hand the UK rounded up<BR>
>most all firearms in the 1920s when fear spread of a Communist insurgency.<BR>
>The former resulted in one of the most repressive regimes in history.  The<BR>
>latter has been a stable democracy ever since (even if you may disagree<BR>
>with the policies of the current Labour Government).<BR>
<BR>
Fair enough. Gun ownership in the US, though, is not a legacy of the<BR>
American Revolution.<BR>
It's primarily a legacy of the American Civil War, which taught millions<BR>
how to shoot and left<BR>
them with (previously not affordable) weapons following demobilization.<BR>
<BR>
3) "a gun is just a tool"<BR>
<BR>
Do gun supporters believe that gun control arguments should all the way<BR>
along? If you argue that guns should not be outlawed because, after all,<BR>
people can massacre their opponents with blades, and, gee, they might get<BR>
worse stuff as well, does this apply further to other weaponry?<BR>
<BR>
I trust pro-gun supporters also believe that the world will be a safer<BR>
place if every state had ICBMs with nuclear warheads.  After all, why<BR>
oppose the things?  Only about 100,000 people have been killed by nukes,<BR>
and anyway, they can always get biological weapons if we ban nukes.  Heck,<BR>
imagine if Haiti had nukes. No need to worry about committing US troops<BR>
there, right? Remove the stigma from nuclear weapons! End armed<BR>
intervention in foreign countries!  No more war!  It's actually not that<BR>
dumb a position; the only worry is the same felt about automatic weapons.<BR>
One crazy with a nuke can do a lot more damage before he's put down than<BR>
one crazy with conventional weapons.  Just like one crazy with an assault<BR>
rifle can killl 10-15 people in two seconds (ifiring into a tighltly packed<BR>
crowd), whereas a guy with a knife would be lucky to manage one.  It really<BR>
depends what you're worried about, of course. The same argument is a pro<BR>
gun argument: one individual with a gun and good tactics can take out a<BR>
number of oppressive/crazed individuals without, wheras he'd be overun if<BR>
he had a knife and they did as well.  Depends on who you see as your<BR>
enemies, i suppose...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 _____________________________________________________________________<BR>
     David L. Pulver -- Senior Staff Writer and Assistant Line Editor,<BR>
		     Guardians Of Order Incorporated<BR>
 Big Eyes, Small Mouth * Sailor Moon RPG * Dominion Tank Police RPG *<BR>
Tenchi Muyo! RPG<BR>
             dlpulver@kos.net  http://www.guardiansorder.on.ca<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:21:55 -0500<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ethnic Confusions<BR>
<BR>
Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> This discussion points out one of the weaker points in "Traveller<BR>
> sociology" -- the assumption that the Vilani, Zhodani, etc. all lack the<BR>
> genetic, phenotypical, linguistic, and cultural diversity of the Solomani,<BR>
> because small numbers were transplanted while the Solomani had a somehow<BR>
> fuller gene pool to draw on. This is totally indefensible on a linguistic<BR>
> and cultural ground, I'm willing to fight to the bitter end; on the<BR>
> genetic and biological side, I'll defer to more versed phys anthro types<BR>
> here, but from what I understand there's no real support for that either.<BR>
<BR>
The logic goes, I believe, that it wasn't just the smaller gene pool,<BR>
but the overall small number of inhabitants living in a small geographical<BR>
area for the other human races that caused their relative homogenity.<BR>
<BR>
While there were probably a number of languages on early Vland, by the<BR>
time they achieved space flight I imagine that they really and truly had<BR>
whittled it down to one language. Even then, they were starting with a<BR>
smaller set of languages to start with.<BR>
<BR>
I imagine the situation would be like dialects of Chinese more than<BR>
wholly different languages - they're different, but not as different<BR>
as they could be.<BR>
<BR>
That's for the Vilani and Zhodani at least - they're described that way<BR>
in "source". Minor human races may be different.<BR>
- --<BR>
Ethan Henry                                        egh@klg.com<BR>
Java Evangelist, KL Group                   http://www.klg.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:23:53 -0700<BR>
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT unless applying Kenji's corollary<BR>
<BR>
Eric Henry wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I've written a space combat game the history of which has combined USA and<BR>
> Canada into the Union of North America.  How would Canadians feal about<BR>
> that?  Americans?  Would it help that in 2080 the president-elect from<BR>
> Toronto gives a "before the decade is out" speech<BR>
<BR>
Well, this Canadian has no problem with that. But I don't know how all<BR>
you Americans would feel about becoming the eleventh province!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Erwin Fritz<BR>
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.<BR>
http://www.glja.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:26:46 -0500<BR>
From: "David L. Pulver" <dlpulver@kos.net><BR>
Subject: OT: Hot Rods and Gun Bunnies<BR>
<BR>
Moving Gun Control Flamebait away from Trav (like it was on topic), I<BR>
thought I'd mention the reason I was interested -- I've just finished<BR>
co-authoring HOT RODS AND GUN BUNNIES for Guardians of Order.  It's our Big<BR>
Eyes, Small Mouth anime-style guns-and-cars book.  There's lots of simple<BR>
rules for guns, but also a lengthy appendix detailing U.S., Canadian and<BR>
Japanese gun laws, and so on.  After having spent a few weeks reading<BR>
the mish-mash of laws in the United States and the sheer illogic of many of<BR>
them (the way AP handgun rounds have been extended to rifle ammo by BATF,<BR>
etc.) I must say I am sympathetic with some of the complaints of gun<BR>
owners... Of course, the Japanese gun laws are rather interesting in<BR>
themselves. "In ALL OF JAPAN only 50 pistol holders licenses will be issued<BR>
at any one time. To get one, shoot expert in an air pistol tournment. Then<BR>
we'll do a background check on you _and_ your family. Carry the pistol only<BR>
in a locked box.  And when your pistol isn't in use for target practice,<BR>
keep it as the police station." That's gun control ):  Of course, a few<BR>
thousand illegal handguns still leak into Japan each year...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 _____________________________________________________________________<BR>
     David L. Pulver -- Senior Staff Writer and Assistant Line Editor,<BR>
		     Guardians Of Order Incorporated<BR>
 Big Eyes, Small Mouth * Sailor Moon RPG * Dominion Tank Police RPG *<BR>
Tenchi Muyo! RPG<BR>
             dlpulver@kos.net  http://www.guardiansorder.on.ca<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:33:34 -0500<BR>
From: "David L. Pulver" <dlpulver@kos.net><BR>
Subject: SDB Traditions<BR>
<BR>
At 10:59 AM 12/17/99 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>Traveller-digest     Friday, December 17 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1516<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
>All rights reserved.<BR>
><BR>
>The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
><BR>
>religious traveller<BR>
>canon<BR>
>Re: Re Rations<BR>
>7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
>Re: silly traveller<BR>
>Re: Ethnic Confusions<BR>
>Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
>Re: Ethnic Confusions (was: Re: (Way OT and possible Flamebait))<BR>
>Paul S.Cargonaut<BR>
>Re: Paul S.Cargonaut<BR>
>Ethnicity<BR>
>Re: [BITS] Millennium Announcement<BR>
>Re: Canonicy of YTU<BR>
>Re: Full auto Pilgramage Pics...and DITZIE?!?! (Way OT and possible<BR>
Flamebait)<BR>
>Re: OT Suggestions<BR>
>Re: Silly Traveller<BR>
>Online Bible (KJV)<BR>
>Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
>Re: off to the racism<BR>
>Re: guns with guns (and more guns)<BR>
>Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
>Re: Wealth Distribution UPP value<BR>
>Thunder Child (was re: They're coming (again))<BR>
><BR>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 04:16:22 -0800 (PST)<BR>
>From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
>Subject: religious traveller<BR>
><BR>
>Jason wrote:<BR>
>> The folks in charge of such things have been<BR>
>> stamping<BR>
>> birth certificates with a Levitical "seal" for some<BR>
>> time<BR>
>> now.  The "Jewish priest" hand book is available to<BR>
>> whoever would read it (it has even been translated<BR>
>> into<BR>
>> hundreds of different languages).<BR>
><BR>
>Kyle replied:<BR>
>I understand there is a frummy (devout) group trying<BR>
>to make some priests: they want a third temple, but<BR>
>aside from the practical problems of one of Islam's<BR>
>holiest sites (the dome of the Rock) being there<BR>
>first, it all needs to blessed by the priests first,<BR>
>etc... and such a priest has to be brought up "pure",<BR>
>never touching a dead person, all that kind of stuff,<BR>
>so have to be brought up in isolation. This group is<BR>
>asking for cohen families to volunteer their sons to<BR>
>be brought up "right" over the next twenty years...<BR>
><BR>
>ObTrav: the PCs are transporting a "holy child" to a<BR>
>world where he'll grow up to be a priest, they're told<BR>
>the rules by his minders, no meat to be eaten, and so<BR>
>on... along the way, the kid gets curious and looks in<BR>
>the refrigerator, eats a big old steak raw...<BR>
>technically, he must be "purified", taken to _another_<BR>
>world, immersed in an ancient lake, etc... do they<BR>
>tell, or not? it's said that "he who allows such a one<BR>
>to be unclean, accursed shall he be..."<BR>
>They do "clean" him, and it's a big hassle, they<BR>
>don't, and all sorts of little things go wrong,<BR>
>misjumps, slight leaks in the ship, fridge goes on the<BR>
>blink spoiling the food, ship's computer pac-man won't work...<BR>
><BR>
>=====<BR>
>KA Schuant<BR>
>member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int,<BR>
Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
>Melbourne<BR>
>Australia<BR>
><BR>
>"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it<BR>
binds the universe together"<BR>
>__________________________________________________<BR>
>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
>Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
>Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
><BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 04:23:35 -0800 (PST)<BR>
>From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
>Subject: canon<BR>
><BR>
>Will Hostman opined:<BR>
>> Ob Trav 1: The Traveller Settings have yet to truly<BR>
>> undergo the kind of<BR>
>> unification that christianity has... we have 5<BR>
>> official settings, all of<BR>
>> which differ. What is valid in the canon of one may<BR>
>> be contradictory to the<BR>
>> canon of another. <BR>
><BR>
>Honourable Reverend Rabbi Kyle replied:<BR>
>Indeed this is so, and we of the Inquisition are<BR>
>determined to stamp out the demonically-inspired<BR>
>heresies by means of admonitions to righteous<BR>
>behaviour, the brand, the rack, and, if need be, the<BR>
>stake! When we have decided what our doctrine is, we<BR>
>shall call for a crusade! The righteous shall arise to<BR>
>destroy the heretics and their foulness.<BR>
>One thing's sure, that T4 won't be in our bible!<BR>
><BR>
>=====<BR>
>KA Schuant<BR>
>member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int,<BR>
Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
>Melbourne<BR>
>Australia<BR>
><BR>
>"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it<BR>
binds the universe together"<BR>
>__________________________________________________<BR>
>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
>Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
>Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
><BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 04:28:35 -0800 (PST)<BR>
>From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Re Rations<BR>
><BR>
>- --- "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
>> >> From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >> ObTrav: will 3I grunts still complain about their<BR>
>> >> food, and will field rations still bind them up?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Of Course! Said lack of excrement in the short term<BR>
>> does have tactical<BR>
>> advantages. It's a design FEATURE of field rations,<BR>
>> not a bug!<BR>
>> <BR>
>well it sure as hell used to bug me!<BR>
><BR>
>=====<BR>
>KA Schuant<BR>
>member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int,<BR>
Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
>Melbourne<BR>
>Australia<BR>
><BR>
>"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it<BR>
binds the universe together"<BR>
>__________________________________________________<BR>
>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
>Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
>Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
><BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:43:17 +0100 (MET)<BR>
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
>Subject: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
><BR>
>Kristian Miller writes:<BR>
><BR>
>>ObTrav:  I once had a Traveller player who planned to have his character<BR>
>>buy a "book" of the "Seven Wonders of the Known Universe" and be an<BR>
>>interstellar tourist.<BR>
> <BR>
>So what would be the 7 Wonders of Charted Space? Any ideas? Apart from the<BR>
>unfinished ringworld in the Vargr Extents I can't think of any canonical<BR>
>feature that merits inclusion on a list of the seven most spectacular<BR>
>sights of the known universe.<BR>
><BR>
>Also, given that with jump-6 as the top speed, a grand tour of the 7 Wonders<BR>
>of Charted Space would propably take most of a decade, how about a somewhat<BR>
>smaller list, like the 7 Wonders of the Spinward Marches, or possibly the 7<BR>
>Wonders of the Domain of Deneb?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>      Hans Rancke<BR>
>University of Copenhagen<BR>
>     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
>- ------------<BR>
>        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
>         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
>                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
><BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:46:43 +0000<BR>
>From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: silly traveller<BR>
><BR>
>"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> wrote:<BR>
>>> From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
><BR>
>>> 6. the Explosive Decompression Long Jump<BR>
>><BR>
>>Kyle has just created the first Traveller _mustering out table_ with a<BR>
>>chance of death. Congratulations!<BR>
><BR>
>That was my first thought<BR>
><BR>
>Then I thought a slice of Terran tree with a universal airlock coupling.<BR>
><BR>
>...<BR>
><BR>
>When rolling for survival, if the survival roll is made exactly, roll 1d3[1]:<BR>
><BR>
> 1. lose leg <BR>
><BR>
> 2. lose hand<BR>
><BR>
> 3. lose eye<BR>
><BR>
>[1] non-T4 players can roll 1d6 on the following table:<BR>
><BR>
> 1-2. lose leg <BR>
><BR>
> 3-4. lose hand<BR>
><BR>
> 5-6. lose eye<BR>
><BR>
>Phil Kitching<BR>
>- --<BR>
>  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
>  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
> "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
><BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 04:15:22 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Ethnic Confusions<BR>
><BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> In the supplements I used to have, the Zhodani were always drawn as though<BR>
>> their ancestors had come from Mongo.  That sort of look can come from<BR>
>> Semitic, East Indian, and Asian ancestry although it really has its<BR>
roots in<BR>
>> the demonization of the Japanese and Chinese earlier in this century and<BR>
>> late in the previous one.<BR>
><BR>
>And at risk of being called a traitor to my race (never mind which<BR>
>one), I always thought that Ming the Merciless and The Insidious Dr. Fu<BR>
>Manchu looked kinda neat. <BR>
><BR>
>ObTrav: One generation's "scare figures" are likely to be considered<BR>
>*attractive* by their (several generations removed) descendants.<BR>
><BR>
>- -- <BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:05:01 -0600<BR>
>From: "shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
><BR>
>Does Lucans Ego count?<BR>
><BR>
>Shadowcat AKA Kevin Walsh<BR>
>Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf<BR>
>ADD/ADHD Advocate<BR>
>http://www.advancenet.net/~meow<BR>
><BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 04:21:40 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Ethnic Confusions (was: Re: (Way OT and possible Flamebait))<BR>
><BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> But here, living in California, I have had little old ladies walk past<BR>
three<BR>
>> or four legitimate Latina girls to earnestly and insistently question me in<BR>
>> Spanish and refuse adamantly to believe that I can't understand them.<BR>
>><BR>
>> I've learned that the only way to get rid of them is to say, insistently,<BR>
>> "Supeingo ga wakarimasen yo, obaasan!" over and over and over.<BR>
><BR>
>Ok, now you *have* to tell us what that means! :-)<BR>
><BR>
>> My stepsister's Arab boyfriends used to chase me and when I was in Greece,<BR>
>> people assumed I was a native, as well.<BR>
><BR>
>I have it on good authority that young arab males will chase *any*<BR>
>non-arab female available. Something about you all being "shameless". :-)<BR>
><BR>
>- -- <BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:28:39 EST<BR>
>From: Diespamer@aol.com<BR>
>Subject: Paul S.Cargonaut<BR>
><BR>
>Greetings:<BR>
><BR>
>Sorry to barge in on the paintball debate...but could Paul S. of Cargonaut <BR>
>please contact Fred Kiesche (Diespamer@aol.com)?<BR>
><BR>
>Thanks...and now back to the debate...<BR>
><BR>
>Fred Kiesche<BR>
>(e-mail: Diespamer@aol.com)<BR>
><BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Re-reading some parts of Invasion Earth, I wonder if the SDB wings on some<BR>
worlds might carry traditions from those world's submarine services (which<BR>
are quite lengthy for those derived from RN/USN, etc.) and be controlled by<BR>
the wet navies (Nautical Force Command, whatever) rather than COACC or<BR>
space naval tradition.  The tactics do seem more submarine like (lie in<BR>
wait, silent running at times, tight bunk conditions) and, of course, some<BR>
SDBs may operate as subs for extended periods.  Do you get Dolphins serving<BR>
as SDB crew (and some ships configured that way) in those areas of space<BR>
that have them?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 _____________________________________________________________________<BR>
     David L. Pulver -- Senior Staff Writer and Assistant Line Editor,<BR>
		     Guardians Of Order Incorporated<BR>
 Big Eyes, Small Mouth * Sailor Moon RPG * Dominion Tank Police RPG *<BR>
Tenchi Muyo! RPG<BR>
             dlpulver@kos.net  http://www.guardiansorder.on.ca<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:27:50 -0800<BR>
From: Keith Johnson <keithalanjohnson@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SF Trav game<BR>
<BR>
At 03:55 PM 12/17/99 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>So Doug when ARE we gonna play Traveller???<BR>
<BR>
Yeah!  When are we? ;)<BR>
<BR>
Only thing I request is that you give me plenty of time to pick up "Alien <BR>
Module 9: Penguins" from eBay.<BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com<BR>
Assistant Webmaster    /()\    keithalanjohnson@home.com<BR>
Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com<BR>
  IMTU tm+ t4+@ tg++$ ru- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+<BR>
_________________________________________________________ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:28:54 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
<BR>
> From: David L. Pulver [mailto:dlpulver@kos.net]<BR>
> >From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
> <BR>
> > In the United States, those States and<BR>
> >Municipalities where concealed carry is on a shall-issue <BR>
> basis have lower<BR>
> >average crime rates, while neighboring states and <BR>
> municipalities with more<BR>
> >draconian restrictions have higher crime rates.  More guns = <BR>
> less crime.<BR>
> >Proven fact.<BR>
> <BR>
> Sigh. It's a ridiculous argument.  All it proves is that gun <BR>
> laws don't<BR>
> work with an open border system, <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> in which case, yes-sir-ree, <BR>
> it's better to<BR>
> mug someone you  know is less likely to be carrying.<BR>
<BR>
Double sigh.  It is not ridiculous - not at all.<BR>
<BR>
Read John Lott's More Guns, Less Crime.  Part of the study is available<BR>
online at<BR>
<BR>
http://papers.ssrn.com/paper.taf?abstract_id=161637<BR>
<BR>
Results:  Guns in the hands of law abiding citizens reduce crime.<BR>
<BR>
> I can drive from Vermont to New York without being stopped by customs<BR>
> officials.  I can have a friend with a Vermont address buy a gun in<BR>
> Vermont, have him hand it to me outside the store (after any <BR>
> waiting period)<BR>
> and then drive to New York. If I keep a few km over the speed <BR>
> limit, I'm<BR>
> not going to be stopped.  That's gun control?<BR>
<BR>
It's also a felony, unless you and your friend are residents of Vermont.<BR>
<BR>
> Anyone <BR>
> willing to break<BR>
> the law can.<BR>
<BR>
This is always a fact - regardless of what law, where, or when.<BR>
<BR>
> You want gun control, enforce a country-wide set of <BR>
> restrictions, eliminate<BR>
> all "grandfather clauses" allowing resale of existing weapons <BR>
> et al (use<BR>
> buy-backs if necessary), enforce drug law level penalties for<BR>
> non-complience (mandatory sentencing, like there is for crack <BR>
> cocaine) and<BR>
> offer $5,000 buy-back on any firearm not covered by the <BR>
> licensing. Cost you<BR>
> a few billion dollars, but if you've the stones for it...<BR>
<BR>
And trash every right that the country was founded on?  Short of doing that,<BR>
it won't work.  Remember Prohibition?  How about the current 'war on drugs?'<BR>
<BR>
What is a 'buy-back'?  How can the gov't 'buy-back' something it never<BR>
owned?  If  you don't choose to 'sell' it to the government, you are put in<BR>
jail.  This is also known as confiscation.<BR>
<BR>
Besides, it was something about confiscating illegal weaponry that set off<BR>
the American Revolution back in 1776.<BR>
<BR>
> Otherwise, all you can say is "the half-hearted, castrated <BR>
> gun laws that<BR>
> the United States can pass are ineffective in reducing <BR>
> crime."  <BR>
<BR>
This has always been true.<BR>
<BR>
> Thought<BR>
> experiment: try it with drugs as well. Ban 'em in one state, allow<BR>
> relatively free sales in another, and see what happens. <BR>
> Answer: more crime.<BR>
>  Why?  Smuggling, ease of access, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Gosh - most of these illicit drugs are banned in most countries.  Doesn't<BR>
stop metric shitloads of 'em being smuggled into the US from Columbia.<BR>
<BR>
> What the US needs is _one_ system. Either the same lack of gun laws<BR>
> everywhere, or the same gun control everywhere. Only then can <BR>
> you have a<BR>
> fair trial of whether "more guns = less crime" is a proven <BR>
> fact or not.<BR>
<BR>
The US does *not* need one system, for anything below the federal level.  We<BR>
are, supposedly,  a union of states - not one overbearing federal state.<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:42:38 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #1517<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: David L. Pulver [mailto:dlpulver@kos.net]<BR>
<BR>
> I trust pro-gun supporters also believe that the world will be a safer<BR>
> place if every state had ICBMs with nuclear warheads.  After all, why<BR>
> oppose the things?  <BR>
<BR>
Ah, the 'Nuke' strawman.  I was wondering when it would show up.<BR>
1. No one is arguing for personal nuke ownership.  When someone argues for<BR>
it, then we can talk about it.<BR>
<BR>
However - it does seem that MAD did more or less keep the peace for 50<BR>
years.  It wasn't nice - but do you think that it would have been different<BR>
if only one superpower had had 'em?<BR>
<BR>
> It really<BR>
> depends what you're worried about, of course. <BR>
<BR>
That's true.  I usually worry about people telling me how to live my life<BR>
especially when I am not hurting anyone.<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:50:30 -0800<BR>
From: Keith Johnson <keithalanjohnson@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:45:49 -0500 (EST)<BR>
>From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
>On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > I'm way too young to remember this first hand, but it probably wasn't <BR>
> making<BR>
> > anybody sick. The physical effects of LSD, even when it's "bad" aren't<BR>
> > terribly impressive.<BR>
><BR>
>Maybe you have more ethical dealers in PA, but -- I'm dealing PURELY with<BR>
>hearsay, here, you understand -- out West you're LUCKY if it gets cut with<BR>
>PCP or Draino.<BR>
<BR>
Around Sacramento (the meth capitol of the world), LSD is usually cut with <BR>
speed.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Or perhaps you're with the Scouts and have one of those (CT)<BR>
>unrefined-fuel-friendly drives.<BR>
<BR>
Interesting way of putting it. ;)<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com<BR>
Assistant Webmaster    /()\    keithalanjohnson@home.com<BR>
Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com<BR>
  IMTU tm+ t4+@ tg++$ ru- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+<BR>
_________________________________________________________ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:49:29 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: 7 Wonders of Charted Space<BR>
<BR>
On 17 Dec 99, at 13:43, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Kristian Miller writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> >ObTrav:  I once had a Traveller player who planned to have his character<BR>
> >buy a "book" of the "Seven Wonders of the Known Universe" and be an<BR>
> >interstellar tourist.<BR>
> <BR>
> So what would be the 7 Wonders of Charted Space? Any ideas? Apart from the<BR>
> unfinished ringworld in the Vargr Extents I can't think of any canonical<BR>
> feature that merits inclusion on a list of the seven most spectacular<BR>
> sights of the known universe.<BR>
<BR>
There's another unfinished ringworld in the Hinterworlds. However the <BR>
locals don't like visitors, so I doubt it'd be high on the tourist <BR>
attractions of known space.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:55:12 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: [OT] Firearms Discussions <BR>
<BR>
David Pulver wrote:<BR>
>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
The same argument is a pro gun argument: one individual with a gun and <BR>
good tactics can take out a number of oppressive/crazed individuals without, <BR>
wheras he'd be overun if he had a knife and they did as well.  Depends on <BR>
who you see as your enemies, i suppose...<BR>
>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
Arm Everybody. The Good Guys outnumber the Bad Guys.<BR>
        - seen recently on a bumper sticker<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1519<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-yh04.mx.aol.com (rly-yh04.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.36]) by air-yh01.mail.aol.com (v67.6) with ESMTP; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:04:27 -0500<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-yh04.mx.aol.com (v67.6) with ESMTP; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:04:06 -0500<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id RAA01565;<BR>
	Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:02:52 -0500 (EST)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:00:42 -0500<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id RAA01241<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:00:42 -0500 (EST)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:00:42 -0500 (EST)<BR>
Message-Id: <199912172200.RAA01241@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #1519<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
